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Stephen:  Welcome to Episode 18 of the Needle movement podcast. Here's our last episode in a streak about brands, focus on sustainability and conscious eCommerce. And also this will be our first show, which directly discusses marketing and messaging in the time of Covid-19. 

Our special guest is Jessica Kelly, the founder of Thr3efold. Can't wait to dive into this episode. 

Welcome to the show, Jessica.

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: Thanks for having me. I'm so excited to be here.

Stephen: it's an interesting time to connect, right?

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: That it is that it is. Everyday seems everything very quickly.

Stephen:  Yeah. The timing is so interesting. I've been following Thr3efold from afar for months. So it was really excited to have you on. 

I saw that you were starting an Ethical New York Fashion Week, and you're connecting factories to emerging fashion brands. Was really looking forward to chatting with you on the show. 

I guess now, current events has changed things, and we're both a little bit hunkered down, and mmm, we're I think we're both in lockdown states, right? 

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: Yes

Stephen: Because you're in California and I'm in New York City. Yeah, we'll definitely dive into the elephant in the room before we do that…. would love to just tell your story. So how? Tell us about your journey to starting the company Thr3efold.

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold:  I had been working in the fashion industry for about five years, and I had just hit a wall. I knew I loved fashion. I felt a calling to be working in fashion, but just had gotten to a point where I felt like my job needed more meaning than the things that people freaked out about. We're just not curing cancer. And I started going on this personal journey of discovery to figuring out what that could be, because I knew I didn't want to leave fashion. But I had to, for my own soul, figure out what that meant. Big picture and serendipitously had an opportunity to go on this mission trip to Zimbabwe the same time. 

But I was kind of sorting all this out and had just been completely overwhelmed by the kindness and joyfulness and generosity of the Zimbabwean people, but was very, very affected by how little job opportunity they had and how hard working they were, but really struggled to make enough to just send their kids to school and had to choose which, you know, grandchild got to go to school, and it was just a lot of systemic issues that I was really impacted by. And so I came back basically just with a fire under me… on a mission to figure out what I could do to create more jobs around the world, and that kind of opened me up to a world of research . . .. and started learning more about fashion and what possibilities were available and just learning more …..Fashion is the largest labor industry in the world. And to me, that meant if we employ more people than any other industry, we're doing that correctly can create more opportunity and for people around the world, especially given the fact that most of our manufacturing takes place in developing nations where this is really key to their survival. So I just started doing a lot of research around that, and eventually that got me to India. 

And I did a month long research and development trip there. Just because I had this vague idea that because my background was not production, I wanted to get on the ground and learn more. And so I ended up encountering these really incredible factories that are small scale factories that were employing women rescued out of sex trafficking and large scale H&M factories that have leading labor standards and have day care for their employees’ kids and they have a machine that dyes denim with one glass of water, things that I was just floored by. But they all had horrible websites like you would never find them online. So it just was really obvious to me that it needed to be easier for brands to be able to find these good factories because they exist. They just aren't good at sites. 

So that's what I came back with. Basically just started talking to people in the industry and trying to manually connect people. But ultimately, I saw that it really needed a platform just from the get go. That was the vision I had in my head. But I am not a developer. So I ended up crowdfunding in order to get the funds we needed to go into development to create our ethical manufacturing platform, which basically allows fashion brands to sign on and search ethical factories all around the world. They can compare pricing and manage their production all in one place, and by way of that, you know, as we grow and are able to bring more work to the factories that deserve it, they can grow and they can employ more people.

Stephen: That's amazing. That's amazing. Yes. So how how long does it take for?…Because I think it does tackle such a fundamental problem with the industry. Because we know that brands want to do better on things like environmental sustainability and then and even has labor….start to see the impact of labor in the apparel industry. Effectively, eso brands definitely want to do more, but then they don't know the next step. We got a previous guest who said Googling is the way that people find these things out. So… how long does it take for a brand that wants to do better? Wants to work with more ethical factories to find them through the thr3fold platform.

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: Oh, I mean, no time at all…

Stephen: Or the process from, I don't know, signing up to the platform to having you know, a relationship of production

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: We tend to recommend for first time working with a factory, especially if you're a smaller, newer brand. To give yourself at least six months to go through this process. You're going to need to have your basics in place, which is your tech pack and your designs. all the things that you want detailed out for your manufacturer. But then you're gonna need to go through a bit of iteration to find the right fit, even with great standards and good quality you're still gonna want, just similar to if you'd hire someone, there's a ton of people that could do a specific role for you. But you want to find the right fit for your company and your culture. It just takes a little bit of time, and that's something we can't automate. 

So, sampling with your factory and, how do they making a list of what are your non-negotiables like? How quickly do they get back to you? What mediums do they use for communication? What country is important to you or if that's not important to you, what is important to you and figuring out what all of that is. And that takes time to kind of sift through all of those options based on the qualifications you're looking for, sampling with them and then going into production And then it's the whole process of managing that relationship so that you get the best quality product and in the best relationship possible.

Yeah, we recommend at least six months when you're first getting started to just have enough time. I can't tell you how often I have brands email me wanting to find a factory. And they're like, “I had this idea. I want to make this many pieces. I wanted it in a month.” and I'm like, “Okay, that's not gonna happen.” 

You have to be realistic of the back and forth and all the details that go into it.

Stephen: Gotcha. I think that a six month timeline is consistent with what happens in apparel. We've all spent time in New York. Everyone wants something yesterday. Everything is a manufactured emergency. But I think that six months is a realistic timeframe. It sounds like, or quick even from what we’ve seen.

Jessica: Yeah, and then you feel better Do because you're like, OK, this is what I'm setting myself up for, rather than feeling like you're behind when you're not…you just gave yourself an unrealistic deadline.

Stephen: Right. And I guess even in the timeframe now to like, you know, this the world of suppliers now has been thrown up in the air a little bit. As companies are already looking for new places to manufacture products.

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: Yeah, that was already starting to take place because of the trade wars happening in China. People were starting to seek other options. You know, China's great. China's got a lot of high quality. It's a machine, as far as manufacturing goes. But there are other countries that do really great quality product as well and they're fantastic options. So not being stuck on one country, I think is important in general, just opening up a world of… a supply chain for you.

Stephen: How does it? With ethical manufacturing, how is the cost structure? Because with cost of goods sold, people are really have been attracted to China because of the lower cost versus other options. Is there any benchmark or barometer for the difference in cost as you get manufacturing outside of China and do ethical manufacturing?

because, the other thing is that people are they are willing to pay more for the products. And I think even it's encouraging to see how much more scale is happening. Unethical manufacturing because with higher scale, it lowers the overall costs as more consumers or choosing it as well.

Jessica: Exactly. Economies of scale is a huge component to consider.  You can still get really great price product in India, in Bangladesh, at ethical certified factories that are still gonna be so much cheaper than manufacturing in America. 

You gotta consider when you're paying staff who has to make rent in Manhattan. Compared to what? Making rent in, you know, Gurgaon India. That's very different. And, you know, the dollar to rupee ratio is very different, you know? So, it will cost a little more if you're working with a factory who actually treats their employees correctly and isn't working with slave labor or anything like that.  But I still think you get fantastic pricing while working with ethical factories that is an option.

Stephen: That's amazing. So you're not sacrificing your your costs, As you know, nearly as much as one might perceive to get it done ethically.

Jessica: Exactly. Yeah. Yeah.

Stephen: All right. So is it is a time to go to the elephant in the room.

Jessica: Let's do it.

Stephen: Let's do it. Yeah, this is actually the first show that we've done since. Ah, now, since the coronavirus hit everyone hard. So what is your personal impact? Um, or what you're seeing on the ground right now in California?

Jessica: So I am temporarily in Los Angeles. I've been here for six months, mainly to avoid the winter selfishly to avoid the New York winter. 

Stephen: It’s much better over there.

Jessica: Think similar to New Yorker experiencing similar things at the same time, to be honest, 

States are on complete lock down, only leave the house for outside exercise and essentials. I was just reading every page of the Women’s Wear Daily that came out on March 19th which basically went through retail chains that's closed, what small brands are doing, what the garment district is doing, like all of these things, is just like a whole issue on the effects, up-to-date of the current virus. And so there's a lot going on. 

I mean, personally and manufacturing. We've already started seeing the ripple effects of that because I have had people I know in production that in January were like, “Well, China's not anywhere to be found.” So they knew they were already gonna be late with their product in orders. We did a blog post about that, I think, in February about what the fashion industry can potentially expect because of the coronavirus. Which, of course, that's just magnified since the time that we posted that. 

The biggest thing that I'm seeing is the CFDA just released last week, just a call for any fashion designers and manufacturers who are able to step up and start making masks and gowns. If there's anything …. and it's surreal, it really does feel like that wartime mentality of everyone shift your business and let's we get the essentials going now. 

So we have brands stepping up and doing what they can. The plan is there is no plan. People are trying to figure out as best they can how to stay in business, um, and pivot where they can to meet a need. I mean, that as business owners is what we should always be focused on anyways is meeting the need of your customers. So actually taking a pulse that were your customers are at and meeting them there, you know, rather than throwing information at them, how can you support them? And in turn, it supports you and your staff as well. So I think you know, we're all in this really weird unknown territory that we're navigating. It's changing day to day. It's hard to predict every day what's gonna change it happen.

Stephen: Yeah, I just Yes, so much has changed week by week on this because I'm even recalling some phone calls I've had with people a week ago and that just seemed like a completely different world. 

I've actually read now a number of corporate communications about the coronavirus, and we're all kind of there's a little bit of verbal diarrhea with or just a repetition of the same like it seems like the legal teams and compliance teams are hitting some of those, and it does. The sentiments are obviously still there, but I think what you were saying about tone is right on. It's more important now than ever. In marketing, you should always speak like a real person. to be as authentic as possible to situations.

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: Yeah, absolutely. And I think, like what? I'm, um, advising brands right now. While it can be really stressful to be concerned about your staff pay, which is a very real concern, and that's a good concern to be worried about as a business owner. But if you're just throwing out ads and sales for  “Buy this dress! Buy this dress.” like no one's wearing a dress right out, like people are pulling their weddings like things, they're just everything is being put on hold. 

So, is there, you know something that you can be doing to help your customers. So I think like that. The advice I'm trying to give people right now is reach out to your customers. Let this opportunity to actually engage in with your customers directly be the time when you learn what their needs are. 

Because out of that could come something that you have foreseen that you can actually turn around and work with and offer them and help them. And in return, people are bored at home and wanting to buy stuff. But what do they actually need right now? And, you know, if you're a small enough business, you can turn on a dime. You can start offering things that you can sell, you know, flash sales on social media with that you have just learned about. I mean, that's one of the benefits of being a smaller brand. You don't have to go through all of the bureaucratic steps to offer a new line of clothing. So, I think really taking time right now to interact with your followers and engaged in a really authentic way not only will come across well to the people who do follow you but will allow it. You probably find opportunities that you maybe don't know and uncover those so that you could do something with your business at this time.

Stephen: Definitely. This is a time… it's not really a customer acquisition mindset right now, because it's a time to connect with the people that are already engaged with you and already know who you are. It's an opportunity for brands to really… to stand out. People always talk about values. It’s really a time to exhibit those to your audience directly. I was thinking because right now…. I'm in Brooklyn and we're being as careful as we can. 

I”m thinking of what is valuable for the audience. With sustainability and ethics, this audience already has it down. with Covid-19,  it's applying in a different way, With sustainability, we've all gotten pretty good at adjusting our behavior slightly so that we can do even better. When you're making ethical clothing, you can't be or you're trying to be a sustainable as possible. You're constantly trying to upgrade your practices from what you did before, you know, I'm making those incremental improvements. It's the same thing with Covid-19 where two weeks ago. maybe you weren't gonna…. don't shake a hand, you put an elbow up, and now you really have to stay six feet away from everybody. Yeah, it's an adjustment and taking yourself out of risky situations, it might be tempting to get a cheap flight somewhere. Um, and I've heard that from a couple of people recently. But there's a risk we're going into an airport right now.

Jessica:  Yeah. I mean, I don't know anyone that's that's fully considering that as a real option. Like, sure, I'd love to get a $30 flight to  somewhere cool, but like you, for what reason? Like what am I gonna do there, You know, like like I'm not gonna get started in some country.

Stephen: And I heard this. Yeah, I heard this last maybe, like, four days ago, and I think already that's a retiring rationale. Just to get I think it's just that, you know, we can all develop ways that we can be smarter to reduce the spread to others and to ourselves. And it's just about kind of locking in your protocols, just like we've always done when we're trying to shop more consciously, we're trying to change our habits for the better. It's just it's just breaking habits, and we can set up new habits and get used to them.

Jessica: Yeah, yeah, I mean, I think that's one of the things again, like considering what other options you might have. Like, What can you do that’s digital right now? How can you go in a digital direction? 

So maybe instead, it's starting to offer closet, you know, styling consultation. And you literally set up a Zoom with whoever package and you walk your customer through their wardrobe and go. “Okay, well, this will work. This will work.” and then it's an opportunity for you have a really long conversation with your customer, and when you do have a sale to offer like, “hey, you know what? We have this sweater that would actually tie together 20 of these pieces we talked about.” That sale makes a lot more sense and people again, 

Like I said, our board right now at home if they are thankfully in their job and working from home and not worried about losing their job, That’s a way to meet your customer where they're at and some a skill that you probably have that you haven't, you know, used to market as a skill. So, you know what can you be doing that’s digital? How can you get creative? Um, and meet people where they’re at, And I think that's the biggest thing given that, you know, just honestly, everything seems on hold right now.

Stephen: Yeah, that's a great point about how to be digital. I mean, we've been very inspired by a couple of nightclubs in New York that basically started live streaming dance parties. Yeah, SA you know, or, you know, even performers who are live streaming their performance. So right, like, what's the digital version?… that really counts also because my sense is that we're in shock right now, and we will be in shock me for a little while, but after that shock and we get closer to normal, that's when the reciprocity principle kicks in where all that engagement you're doing now with your audience, they're going to remember that. And then when it comes time to buy, they have more of a connection to you now in this time than they would with other options. 

Jessica: That's the point to really lean into right now is where big brands can rely on corporate umbrella structure to finance them through hardships like this. Small brands can rely on that one, the one personal connection to customers to stand out. And I think right now, more than ever, people really are talking about shopping, local and really supporting these small businesses at a time where most crucial. 

Keep keep researching the stimulus package that the government's talking about right now. Where can you apply as a small business to get some support during this time and then simultaneously with that, how can you be connecting personally? Because, I mean, that is what will get a customer to be a lifelong brand like follower all day long. So that's the benefit of being one of the small brands right now to really lean into your secret sauce, which is that you actually give a shit. You know you are a face, there's a face behind your brand, and being that face right now is the most important thing you could do.

Stephen: Yes. Right, because iit does tie into where people want to buy from other people and to make that connection. So that is the asset that a smaller brand would have versus versus other brands that would have more more reserves available. 

So let's go into tactics, I mean, and I think we've already demonstrated a few …. what brands could do on different channels. What are people doing on social media now to engage their audiences like air, using any good live streams or other interesting things?

Jessica: Yeah, again, I think, like figuring out content that you would want to consume. Maybe that is using parts of the collection you have to do styling. So maybe you do in a daily Instagram Live series where you're going through different styling options with basics that everyone would have in their wardrobe, and you're using that for inspiration with your own pieces in your collection. Think about things that are going to give people hope and entertainment right now. That's kind of what I think. I've been gathering over the last week that's changed so much every day is I'm overrun with warnings. I like I know what I'm supposed to be doing. And I'm through them. 

What I want to hear is like things that are gonna make me laugh and give me hope in humanity and that we'll all get through this in. So, you know, what are some of those things that you could do that makes sense for your brand? You know, messaging and tone. Ah, and you know, can coincide with your product. Uh, that can meet people where they're at. I mean, think of things that you would actually want to listen to. Those are the things lean into right now.

Stephen:  Yeah, I definitely and I've definitely seen content production ramp up a lot where you know, now all that all that shit that you didn't have time to do.  People can make videos or have a little more bandwidth to create additional content. I think that…something that we're both seeing with content to and I'm sure this is going to change soon is that there is a “BEFORE and AFTER” here. And when we see marketing that comes from the before period. It's not tone-deaf  but it just doesn't relate to us. We're like, “Oh, that's a commercial someone made before this happened”…really to create, to create content that is in the now, you know, in the right now.

Another thing I was thinking about was email. Email is really a great channel now for affordable marketing, outreach to people and just to relay to continue to relay the marketing messaging.

Jessica: Yeah, And I think putting together that messaging in a way that again makes sense. I saw a meme on Instagram around this past week that was like…. it had something to do with, “Here's our response. Every person, every company you've ever given your email to. Here's their response for Covid-19”… it because basically, that's what's happening right now is every single company you have ever in your lifetime given your email to is emailing you right now about their response to Covid-19. So in relation knowing that that's what people are getting their inbox is flooded with. 

Instead of just putting out a boilerplate legal email like, “here's what we're doing”… again. how is what you're gonna be messaging relevant to your actual customer. Because if they're not, you know, they're probably not sitting there going, “Gosh, how am I gonna buy this dress from this brand?” 

Their concern is “Oh, I can't go to my sister's wedding anymore. Gosh, I feel so bad for her. When is she gonna get to have her wedding?”

While updating people on what your brand is doing to respond. Maybe come up with a unique thing you actually are doing first and then talk about that. That's a lot more… Are brands shifting to making masks right now for the demand that we have. What is the story that you can tell that is responsive and engaging and meaningful? Not just “here’s our Covid-19 update” because that will get lost in the shuffle.

Stephen: Yeah, people are not gonna respond to it. Christian Siriano is the one that, from a marketing perspective, they got a lot of coverage for manufacturing masks right now or announcing that they're going to supply with their factory, that production. 

Jessica: Well, he's actually a good example. I've seen him time and time again over the last several years, t hey're bringing their them as a brand, respond quickly to opportunities and collaborations and where they can do interesting and different things. And right now it's a good example. And that's why I'm not surprised that he's one of the first brands that stepped up and said, “We're gonna be making masks.”… because that's kind of what their brand always does. They don't just do collections. I’ve seen him due a numerous amount of collaborations. And he's a a known name,…what can your brand doing? I think that's exactly what to be looking out for Is those opportunities

Stephen: Got it? Great points. Okay, so let's talk a little bit more about about Thr3efold, I guess how your platform works. But how does Thr3efold help brands to prosper?

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold:  Absolutely. We focus in general on helping brands grow for people, planet and profit. 

We have the ethical manufacturing platform, which I spoke about earlier that helps brands connect ethical factories around the world and manage their production. But with that, we also have courses and coaching because my background inthe industry….I know how hard it is to build a brand. It's it's very, very challenging, so it's not just make the product and they'll buy it. You know, you have to have press, and you have to have wholesales build up, and you have to know how to market to your customer and who they are and where they are. So we have online courses for marketing, branding, sales, crowdfunding press ..how to pitch to press, managing your production. We also have and this is one of my favorite things we offer because I think iit involves the most high touch impact for brands is our coaching club.

In our coaching club is a six month brand mentorship program actually starting up real soon for its next cohort. And it is weekly coaching calls with me and other peers of mine in the industry that have expertise in their own area of the fashion industry. And we go through A-Z… everything it takes to really build a brand, and it's been great for brands that have been pre-launched, and they're still getting a lot of their ducks in a row as well as brands who have been doing incredibly well. But they're ready to start looking more buttoned-up and professional and larger than they are. 

So they're scaling up, leveling up what they're doing. So, we have a lot of really great strategies and templates that are downloadable within our courses for brands to put into play some of the things that you know these bigger brands use as they build out their marketing strategy and everything that goes into that. How do you approach….how to find the right journalist, how to approach them for press? How do you build relationships with retailers so you can grow your wholesale in other areas, not just your own eCommerce. There’s a myriad of topics to cover when you're trying to grow a brand and it can be very overwhelming. Not to mention the fact that having that accountability each week as well as that feedback to some of the questions you might have it you can't find on Google are just really… It's priceless information. And swapping it with other brands who are doing it at the same time as you like I've we've come across resource is because someone else found something on the coaching club that's also helped everyone else. So it's a great group of people to be a part of, So we just are trying to help brands in every way they can to build their business.

Stephen: That sounds like a great opportunity. I've seen this too, I think, you know, with starting brands and having them on every step of the ladder of brands hid them hitting their 1st 100,000….500,000… their 1st million… 5 million….10 million.

There are so many blind spots along the way. Things, that for one person. It's impossible for one person to know the cross functional expertise of 10 different fields that are required. So that's what sounds great about your coaching club because it gives people that opportunity to say, “I got to think about my PR and… I need a template for my marketing. And this is how you want to see other people's challenges too.

Jessica:  Exactly, because, I mean, you don't know what you don't know having you know the ability to have almost like a consultant on call at a much more discounted rate than it would actually.

Stephen: That's what's nice about coaching.

Jessica: Yeah, so, yeah, that's the way we try to do is offer it. It’s almost like having a group trainer at a gym instead of a personal trainer. You know, for every area of your body, like a trainer, you're all learning and gathering the same information. You're still getting that one-on-one connection, but because all of you were going through this thing, saying you're able to do that again at that economies of scale and in a more formal price. And, you know, when you're growing about this, every dollar counts.

Stephen: Yeah, exactly. Totally agree. So, in regards to press. I see some of the… Thr3efold has gotten some great coverage already. Like I see you’ve been mentioned in Forbes ,Women’s Wear Daily (WWD). So what type of advice would you give to brands? How they can pitch press or what should they say? Like, what's there? Which of their approach be?

Jessica: Yeah. I mean, the most simplified answer is you You need to have an actual personal relationship with these journalists. So, um, finding the journalist that are actually writing about stuff already that would correlate with your brand, um, is step #1. and then starting to engage with their content on Twitter or an instagram and just become a friend first….share, maybe tweet back, share other articles you might think or interesting to them. Warm up that lead a little bit. 

This is something we go through everything with this in the “Pitch Press” course… What's the best way to approach a journalist when you do pitch yourself? What do you include in that pitch? All of that stuff that I think like really with the nuts and bolts it gets down to is creating a personal relationship and then fostering that relationship and then not reaching out to them with just like here, talking about my brands, like they have a job they're trying to do, too. So how can you help them do their job? What is the information they're gonna want to read that gives them a unique content because at the end of the day, you being a brand on existing and selling product is not “news”. So what can they do and talk about that it is different and interesting. 

That's kind of… that's hard as a brand owner to take yourself out of that equation because everything you do is news to you. But really starting to read what they're writing about? Where do you fit into that? How can you help develop their story more? Um, is really important to coming across and being received well by a journalist.

Stephen: Yeah. I think the with PR. it can be very valuable to a business. But it's like we were talking about with factories, how some people would want something done in a month, and it takes six months, and it's which is still a great time frame. PR should be thought of with that long term perspective.

Jessica: Oh, yeah. 100%

Stephen: You're gonna pitch people. And typically it doesn't happen quickly. But over time, the investment that you put into PR and the return that you get on… It just builds and builds as you climb that ladder of placements. But sometimes it just takes….have you had this experience with podcasts at all  and guesting on them….

Jessica Kelly, Thr3efold: Oh, absolutely. I mean, a podcast for me. I put in the same category as Press as far as my outreach. 

That's where it goes in my outreach bucket. But yeah, it would definitely be the same thing…. you can pitch to a podcast. And for example, I pitched to some that we haven't been able to be on because they only film in person and they're never in New York. 

So, that just depends on you know what the podcast is, how they operate, um, and again, creating those relationships and telling your story that's unique. And we have a lot of inbound requests in traffic as well. Press begets press. That's why it is. It's a long term strategy. And it can be frustrating because you can feel maybe, like you’re putting in the work and you're not getting anything back or you are getting stuff out there that you’re not seeing direct sales in but it all relates. 

I talk to people all the time that found Thr3efold. I always ask how they found us. And it's a mixture of either ourForbes or WWD article. Or maybe it's Instagram or it was just old fashioned Google but they all help each other. I mean, the fact that we've been in some great publications links back to our website, which increases our search results in Google and because I've put a lot of effort into continuing content on Instagram that is engaging for our market. People follow it and share it and, you know, continuing to try and do things that I think people want to read that our brands, our target market so that's again going back to what do people want to read? Not do What? What do you want them to talk about?

Stephen: Right? It's everything is in the eyes of the prospect of our customer. Not what you know what you want them to do. Press is still … it really is PR is an organic marketing strategy that I just think sometimes the mindset is occasionally people will see it as a turn-on, turn-off sort of thing. Like I'm going to try that. And I'm gonna try this for three months, and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work, and it just it's really…. It takes a little while. Yeah, it takes a little while to get it going. But it just once once it's like, you know, it's that snowball or domino effect. Yeah, because have you had with your business have you seen a lot of your business you're saying comes from organic marketing, right?

Jessica: Yeah, we get a lot of people that have found us on Online or on Instagram. We were on on episode of “Conscious Chatter” while Al gosh, I don't even remember it was a year or two years ago. And I feel like I still occasionally get people even that far back from their podcasts that found our podcast on Conscious Chatter. So, um, it's evergreen. Once it's out there, it's out there. So it only helps you to have, you know, build your press because those keywords and linking back to your website and when people are searching, they might find maybe they don't find your website but they find the episode of the podcast that you're on,. So it's all incredibly help, but it is a long-term game.

Stephen: Yeah, Yeah. I mean, what's great about podcast too, is just the time that people, especially for people that are there, starting apparel companies or owners of those businesses compared to paid advertising where people are only going to see your product, it for three seconds. I mean, it's It's not humanizing effect. That's effective. 

Amazing. Well, this is thank you so much for coming onto the show. There was some really good insights. And how can people reach you so that they can find out more information about re folds its coaching club and hear more from you in the future? Absolutely. I mean, check us out on three full dot com. We spell our name with a three, so it's Thr3efold dot com and you can reach me at Jessica at Thr3efold dot com. Always happy to be here and be a resource. And we do put a lot of fun content out on Instagram so be all means follow along. Always taking requests of you have specific questions. We'd always love the help. If you are interested in having a personal coach that can help you through this season of either leveling up your brand or launching it. Our coaching club is starting, and it only opens every six months and the next co-hort is launching soon, so reach out and get that sounds good. Thanks again for coming on the show. 

Jessica: Thank you so much for happy me. I loved it!