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Stephen Carl: Welcome to Episode 16 of the Needle Movement Podcast and part of our theme this month. Mission to March. 

We showcase brands, focus on environmental sustainability and covered different aspects of mission-driven marketing. Today, our special guest is John McDonald, the president and founder of the Good. A conversion optimization firm this episode will be a double header of sorts.

First, Jon's gonna tell us how his company became a certified B Corp and that term might be familiar. If it's not, this is the same certification that Warby Parker, Ben and Jerry's and Patagonia have done, and these companies are called Triple P companies, companies dedicated to “people, planet and profits”. 

And Jon is gonna talk through the process of applying for that. And then we'll switch gears and you will share his insights and make recommendations on how brands can handle conversion rate optimization. Can't wait to dive into this episode. 

I'm your host, Stephen Carl, talking to you straight from Brooklyn, New York Now let's get out of the show. 

Today we have an action packed episode where we get into two topics. First, how to get into and become a B Corp and second conversion rate optimization. Allow me to introduce our special guest, John McDonald. 

Jon MacDonald: How's it going? Thanks for having me. 

Stephen: I was very impressed with your bio and let me just quickly read it.

John McDonald is the founder of the Good, a conversion rate optimization firm that is achieved results for some of the largest online brands, including Adobe, Nike, Xerox, The Economist and more. He regularly contributes content on conversion optimization to publications like Entrepreneur, Inc. He knows how to get website visitors to take action.

And John is also a 40 under 40 award winner, recognizing 40 professionals under the age of 40 who have excelled in their field, shown leadership and are committed to their community. John also volunteers for several causes throughout the Pacific Northwest and is an active committee member of and industry associations groups such as Entrepreneurs Organization. John is based in Portland, Oregon.

Jon MacDonald: Hi. Now, that was wonderful. Thanks for the great introduction there. Yes, All right.

Stephen: We've spoken before, John, and through a mutual friend, I think Dylan Kelley.

Jon MacDonald: Yes.

Stephen: I think the story of your company is very interesting that your conversion rate optimization agency…that you also had a calling to turn your company into a certified B corporation. So can you talk through your company's journey? 

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, of course. We've been around for about 11 years now, and we focus exclusively on conversion rate optimization. So what I mean by that is that we help brands to convert more of their existing website traffic into customers. Now, we originally started out as an eCommerce development firm. 

So we were helping build eCommerce Web sites. And what we found pretty quickly was that development was becoming more and more of a commodity, if you will, in the sense that with Shopify that was really started to enter the scene then and you know, it was much smaller than it is now. 

But I really could see the future of the fact that it was turning into a SaaS ecosystem for eCommerce. And so it was all software as a service. There really wasn't the need to build eCommerce from the ground up. Instead, it was all about the front end development skills that are required for Shopify and that was great. But one of the things that we always did was, we built in a three month extension onto every single build that we did where we would optimize the site after we launched it. 

And really, what that meant was two things. One it was I want to set our team up for success, and I want to set the customers off for success. Right. And what that meant was, I didn't want to be part of the “launch and leave” philosophy, right? So that we get a site up in then tell the client, “Okay, great! We're done. Your site’s up, you know, good luck. Have fun!”

What we wanted to do was set the right tone with a customer that  at launch, there's gonna be a few minor issues that we're still gonna need to take care of. Always is. So let's just be upfront about that, and we're gonna help you fix those. But we're gonna optimize the site as well. So we're gonna help you track data. We're gonna help you understand how consumers are using your website, and then we're going to continue to refine the site for three months based on those data points from consumers interaction on the new site. 

And when I realized that development was more more of a commodity and and people were moving the things like Shopify and what I did was I traveled around the country and I interviewed a lot of our customers. 

And I said, “You know, what was the reason you hired The Good for?” 

And they said, “Well, you're right. We could find anyone to build our site and in fact, we're never gonna look at the code. So as long as it works, we’re happy.”  Right? 

Yeah, And the problem with that was that, you know, we were producing really great code. We had amazing developers. We cared a lot about what we were doing, but it wasn't really resonating. In the end with customers, you can't sell quality of code, right? As a basically a winning option here. 

So what we did find was that they had hired us because of the optimization. That was the difference in a point that they decided to hire us for so that was an eye opener for me. And so the journey really was we went from a development firm to realizing it was a bit of a commodity, not really sustainable. 

There's competitors all over the place of platforms were really shifting away from custom development to more of a need for just front end and a good understanding of that, of course. But really, it became much more about the usability, the customer experience and understanding how you could optimize sites. And that's why brands really decided to work with us. So we shifted over to conversion rate optimization.

Stephen: Yeah, I still relate to your story about “launching and leaving” and how I think with clients, the companies, sometimes a website, and building it out is such a huge project and so important, you know, but that, I think that's great that you always built in this time period. The launch of the site and then making sure that it was delivering on his promise and to continue optimizing it.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, thank you. But part of this also is that's how we became a B Corp. So let me connect the dots here. It's very interesting. So when we made that change right, we had a lot of developers on stuff really talented folks, and I made the decision. We were gonna change the direction we were going, and that meant we need to make some staffing changes. 

And at that point, the biggest thing for me was, “Let's make sure everybody here is set up for success, right?” I understand that it's people's lives. It's bigger than business. It's bigger than profits. For me, it was all about making sure that we did two things. One: took care of the folks that needed transition and did everything we could to help him, but also to set them up for success. And what that meant was that when we started shifting, what types of clients were taking the type of work we were taking on, I was very up front with the team and said, “Hey, we're gonna be moving directions a little bit And that means that for a lot of the team, there's not gonna be a role here and at the same point, like I want to make sure that you have time to transition.” 

“So here's the story. We're gonna do everything we can to help you. If you need to go to interviews. You need to take time to process this. Whatever it is, Get your own set your portfolio site done or whatever it is. Just let's talk about it like I'm happy to give you the time you need. Let's find the transition plan for everybody, and we'll help you through that transition time.” 

And for me, it was more about putting people before profits. And that's one of the big underlying currents of B corporations, right? people and planet before profits. I was talking to some folks about this, and one of the things that came up was the B corporations’ existence. 

While you're really doing that I haven't seen anyone do that in the way you're handling it. And normally people would just say, Okay, you're done. Here's two weeks See you later and you're putting a lot of trust in your people and in that transition process. And someone who is part of a group called (EO) Entrepreneurs Organization that I also belong to said you should check into what a Benefit corporation is. And at the time it was just getting started. There weren't a lot of them. It was mostly manufacturing companies, it was brands like Patagonia, things like that, thBut, you know, nobody was a consulting firm or an agency, if you will. So that was how I got introduced to “B corporations”.

Stephen:  Wow. You know, just to go quickly back. After being in digital and eCommerce for a while, with the people that you're working with. I think we all know deep down that it's possible that we're not gonna be working for the rest of our lives together at the same position, that there's a lot of mobility eCommerce. And I think what you're talking about is just such a good model. 

Let's just say there is gonna be a transition and you're not gonna need someone. I've heard related stories before what you're talking about, where the employer and employee worked together on a transition plan, and it just makes a smoother transition for everyone involved versus the surprise. Your email doesn't work today – “why doesn't my email work? Why can't I get into applications and that stuff?” 

So I think I think that's great.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, you know what it is? It's mutual respect, and I think that it really matters how much you emphasis you put on when people leave, as opposed to when they join the team. Right? 

So many companies worry about onboarding and making sure that first day experience is great and that matters. Don't get me wrong. But what about the last day experience? 

Most people don't consider that. They don't think about offboarding. We've put considerable effort here into what happens when somebody leaves. What's that offboarding experience look like? And I would argue that matters even more in terms of the reputation of the company. I think it matters more in the memories that the employees gonna have. All right, I mean, how many days? How many times do you remember the first day at a company? But you almost always remember the last day.

Stephen: It's nice to think of your company as the people leaving are like your alumni association. They're lout, they're the alumni network, and there's so much I've….There's just a lot of great knowledge sharing and opportunities that even come after people leave the company. So let's jump to. I just would love to hear the process Well, first off, if you could define what a B Corporation is for everyone. And then let's just walk through the process of how your company became a B Corp.

Jon MacDonald: Sure, so a B corporation, how I summarize it, and this is maybe not how you would hear them summarize it. But I think the best way to describe it is that it puts people in planet over profits, and when I mean by that is that your company needs to make profit, right?

But it needs make profit to serve a few purposes in addition to just making money for the ownership of the company. And what I mean by that is that you need to have a healthy work force. You need to have a healthy team members who are participating in the winds of the company, right, And you also need to be making sure that you're not harming the planet just by running your business right, because even if you're taking great care of your team members, you could be doing things that completely harm the planet or just disregarding it together. And so there's that angle to it for sure, which for manufacturing companies is a lot more involved than what a consulting firm would have to go through for that certification. But I will tell you that we do put an emphasis on that here. 

There's things like… we only keep reusable office supplies around. We don't have staples, for instance, one-time use, right? We have one printer for the entire work force, and we encourage you not to print things. And we actually keep reams of paper under lock and key. It's pretty funny, So when we run out, you have to go ask for it. Which gets to be a little embarrassing after a while, like “How much are you printing, right?”

Stephen: I mean, we're seeing what sustainability? That there are so many micro decisions that you're making on a daily basis and just being just being aware of, you know, whether it's the printer, whether it's the hosting of your company, there's a lot of things that can impact environment significantly. So how was – I'm just dying to know because you've been through this process – Was it easy, were there assessment steps when you had to, when you were looking into certification.

Jon MacDonald: So the short answer is, “Yes, there's a lot of steps.” And no, it's not easy or everybody would be doing it for the marketing angle. We don't really use it for the marketing angle. You don't hear us talk about it much. We have it up on our site. We're proud of it, but we're never gonna run a marketing campaign that says  “Work for us because we care about these ideals.” 

I've seen some brands do that, and I think it’s…I frown upon it and I think the community does overall, because it's more you know less about the moral side more about the marketing side. 

But the way that you end up doing this is you have to take an assessment, and it is run by a corporation called the B Corp. What they do is they come up with the assessment and they help you score yourself, and they work with you to confirm that you actually have all of the things in place that you say you have. 

How does that work? Well, it's multiple parts. It takes about a week to complete the assessment if you truly focus on it after you gather all the documentation, and it's really involved again if your manufacturer, because it even goes into who the manufacturers’ suppliers. So you have to figure out where you’re sourcing the materials that are getting manufactured at your plant. Are they fair trade? Are they sustainable? Do they care about the planet? Things of that sort.

So it goes into a handful of things, goes into your company and the benefits that you provide your company. So there needs to be a minimum ratio of leadership to the lowest paid employee, so there's a ratio there that they want you to be within. We have to provide a certain range of benefits, and again, there's a lot in there about leadership versus down to the intern, right? 

There can only be a certain amount of disparity there, so they talk about benefits and pay they look at equality. So they want to know ratios of race and gender and pays in that area. And then they also want to know for diversity of your makeup of your team is very important, and then, in addition to that, they look at your suppliers as I talked about. So where all of your goods coming from. 

In our case, we are a knowledge-based company, but we do have this conversation with all of the contractors that we work with and then also your customers. So they want to know who you work with. And are those brands reputable brands? What I mean by that is are you working with people like you'll never see somebody who's a certified B Corporation that markets coal mining corporations, right? You just won't see it because it's not a clean energy, and that's something that B corporations care about. So, I think the best way to think about this is a B corporation. That certification process you go through is very similar to what something like a fair trade certification is to coffee or the USDA Organic certification is on milk. Things of that sort, right? So you have to go through a lot of layers to get those certification. 

Stephen: What is the range of time it takes to go from filling out your first assessment to hat certification? Are there major phases of that certification process?

Jon MacDonald: There are. The first thing anyone can do is go online, create a profile and start filling out the assessment. You need no help to do it. It's got great documentation. It will save your progress if you don't get all the way through it. 

They've made it extremely easy. Now, they do have help along the way. Help documentation about what certain things mean and what not? 

Then you go through, you answer the questions, and then, it gives you a preliminary score. So you say. Okay, well, you scored “X” and you need to be at “Y” to get certified. 

Then you start looking at what areas can I improve and it comes up and it tells you we think you should be able to improve in these general areas, right? So, like benefits for your team, things of that sout. 

So then you start diving in deeper there, and it's okay. They're asking for certain guidelines to be met on benefits, like, “Do you offer retirement or health care?” And “What percentages of those things do you pay in match?”… things of that sort? So then, once you get that initial assessment on, if you want in, you're serious about committing to become certified. You can then pay. I think it's $1,000 then you can work with a rep at the corporation who will help you to understand exactly where you need to improve and walk you through that process. 

And then once you hit the minimum threshold to be certified at that point, they randomly choose a handful of questions to audit. Now, this is to make sure that you're telling the truth on your assessment, right? So then they want documentation on a handful of these things. So it's a couple processes. Get the assessment, work with somebody, show them that you're serious by putting a little bit of cash behind it. It's not a lot just enough to not walk away if things get a little rough, and then from there, it becomes pretty easy. You work through the process. You continue to improve until you hit the minimum threshold and then you're certified.

Stephen: What would the minimum threshold be of the requirements that there that are being asked. Is it the analogy being grades? Do you have to score an 85 to pass this exam? How does the grating working? 

Stephen: What would the minimum threshold be of the requirements that there that are being asked. Is it the analogy being grades? Do you have to score an 85 to pass this exam? How does the grating working? 

Jonathan: Yeah, it's going very based on the type of corporation you are. What I mean by is if you're manufacturing, they have a whole additional manufacturing component that you need to go through, right? 

If you're consulting firm like ourselves, it generally is a little easier to get certified because you don't have to go through pooling all of that research that the manufacturing company would. 

And so I always look at companies that are manufacturing products like the Honest Company and Warby Parker and Patagonia. They went through heck to get this to be a B Corp…. 

Stephen: Right. Because they go through every step of their supply chain to. 

Jon MacDonald: Yes, and that means, like, even visiting and documenting fact every factory they work with, which is really onerous. You have to pretty much have a full time job of somebody just managing this. But if I could put it into a grade, I think you need to have a B-minus in order to do it. 

But here's the thing that that bar is is relatively low because once you're certified, you have to re-certify every two years, and when you re-certify, you have to score better than you did on the prior years, two years ago, they want to see that you're continually improving and paying attention to this and getting better. So until you had a certain threshold, then that pressure is off a little bit because I mean, you want to hit 100 you can't go more than 100. But I think it's like once you hit 90% or something that need no longer look at that. But the bar to actually certify is not that high in my point of view. It’s difficult. It takes some effort. But it's not impossible for most companies to do.

Stephen: Right, it’s attainable, which is positive, because I think we always have this impression that mission related things that….you get into purity or nothing. Because purity is so overwhelming. The counter argument could win like, “Oh, I can't be pure, so I can't do anything.” And it's definitely not that.

Jon MacDonald: That goes with we only have three core values at the good. But one of them is “make improvements, not excuses.” And the whole thing there is, let's just continue to grow. We're not looking for perfection.

Stephen: Right.

Jon MacDonald: Just if something happens, Okay? How are you gonna not repeat that problem again. And how we gonna learn from that and continue to grow. And so that really fits well with our B Corp certification of….Okay, we're not going to score 100. We know that. That's okay. How are we just going to continue to improve?

Stephen: Because I see this in marketing too. If something happens, let's learn from it and you just get back up and you just keep doing it. And you figure out a smarter way that so we could be how to improve your revenue results in marketing and in I see this in sustainability all the time, where it's like Okay, now I see a new area that I can improve in. 

You know, like I had this funny experience at a takeout bar because they had reusable packaging and we just got these steel bowls. And it's like, how do we not use the packaging? So we just got the steel bowl weighted at the counter and we filled the food in. Because they knew the weight of the container, we didn't have to use the packaging,  So it's there's always new areas, I think to improve and that we’re trying to build on.

Jon MacDonald: And that's exactly it.

Stephen: So it's gonna ask about how, since you became B Corp, how has it changed your interactions with other companies or with networking or with clients?

Jon MacDonald: I will say that it has helped because other big corporations have found us and said, You’re a B Corporation, we prefer to work with other B corporations and will work with you over competitors, right?

So that's always been nice, because you want to do more work with other people who align with the same core values and a B Corporation being certified is a good way to know that an independent 3rd party has validated this, right? So the researchers and certifications is but done for you.  

The other way, it's really benefited us, is in hiring and with our team members because you know how many companies tell you they care about employees, and then how many have a 3rd party….

Stephen: Well, they say it, but right, there's a trust stamp on it for B Corporation.

Jon MacDonald: Exactly. That's exactly it. So that's been great where we've had a lot of people interview and I asked them, “Okay, so why do you want to work here?” They said, “Well, you know, first thing is I love conversion optimization or the portion of it that they're looking to do. And secondly, I saw that you’re a B Corporation and I did a little bit of research and I said, “Wow, this is a hard certification to obtain and you guys have done your homework on it and you obviously care.”

So again we don't really market to new employees that we’re a B Corp but we do mention it. And again, we're proud of it. And we want people who align with that, right? 

If you're not going to bring reusable lunch containers to the office and then you're gonna feel pretty out of place, right? And so, it's just that kind of that culture. And I think, you know, in terms of interactions with the community, it really has brought our team into the community. There's Portland…we're very fortunate has an amazing B Corp community group here of other like-minded companies in town. It's one of the largest groups like this in the world, and there's a couple of folks who really put a lot of care into it and what we have found is that we do things like B Corp Day of Giving, where we'll go out and will donate a day of our time. And everybody can go out and work on one of three or four causes that the B Corp certification group it in Portland has come up with. And it's a day of service.

Stephen: I was gonna ask you just about because I think there's more awareness of B Corps now than before, thanks to the Patagonia's and the Warby Parkers. Before we move on to conversion rate optimization, let’s finish up B Corp. Are there any misconceptions you think that people have that since you're now… you are a B Corp that you see.

Jon MacDonald: I think there's a couple of perceptions. The first is it's somewhat of like a hippie organization, right?

Stephen: It's hippie-dippy.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, exactly. And that's not it at all. I mean, if you came into our office space, you would see some things to be a little different, but it just looks like a normal office space . . .

Stephen: I haven't seen any pictures of you in a tie dye. 

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, I mean, you know, this is the thing. it's one of those . . .

Stephen: I see collared shirts.

Jon MacDonald: Yes, yes, and I think that's the reality is it really is built for a modern workforce, but it's not meant to be onerous of your individuality. It's really meant to just help you do things that are in line again with people and planet over profits. So that's the 1st one. 

I would say the 2nd one is that it's really become a kind of a way to land new business, and I think a lot of people see that and they follow that marketing angle, and I think that's a big misconception. 

But I think a lot of people look at that and say, Well, why did you get certified? You trying to work with other B Corps or what does that look like? And those who are outside and haven't been through the process don't understand it because they haven't had to go through the entire process, and it's like “I would never go through this process if I was just trying to do marketing. There are way easier ways to land new clients.” And so that's not what this is about. That's a little bit of a misconception.

Stephen: Right, so let's move to conversion rate optimization. See, I feel like we should change the voice of this or I think it's the same. It's the same really, I’m just kidding. Can you? I mean, I've been in eCommerce for a long time, so I remember my old experiences with conversion rate optimizations where the discussion of the color of the button. You're on the product page, and if it's a red button, you're gonna get this conversion. If it's a green button, green's a better button, that's gonna solve all your problems but I don't think that's the correct version. So what is conversion rate optimization exactly?

Jon MacDonald: Well, thank you for bringing up that example because it's a great example how C. Aro has been kind of just taken over by people who don't really know what they're doing is the reality. And I think the problem is is that it's so easy for people in right now to say, to throw a whole bunch of tactics out there and checklists in blogged posts and say, Here's how to optimize your sight triple your conversions overnight. 

Well, the reality is that doesn't work. I like to say “Best practices or for beginners,” right? And that's really what it is here. 

Real conversion rate optimization is helping you pay attention to all of the data that is generated by people on your website. Now, this is done in aggregate, so there's no privacy concerns. We don't look at individuals. We can't even see that. But we're looking at things like heatmaps, where people are clicking, where are they scrolling, where did they look around your page? We're doing, of course, analytics deep dives, where the exit points where people spending more time, we want to look at all of that information. Then we want to do what's called “user testing”, where we put the site in front of people who match an ideal customer profile. And we asked them to complete some tasks while we record their screen and their audio. What that allows us to do is not only understand WHAT people are doing based on all of the analytical data, all of the quantitative data, but also look at the qualitative data of WHY.

Why are people having those issues and they're gonna tell us they do in that user testing. So, a lot of times will ask questions and say, “I can't find this. I wonder where that is” Or “it would really be helpful if the navigation work like X, Y or Z.” 

All of those things are really beneficial. And then the fourth thing is, is we do A/B or multi variate testing. Now A/B testing, a lot of people have done maybe on an email campaign or one little thing on their site like a pop up or something. Every tool has A/B testing built into it. It's kind of table stakes. And that's great. I love seeing that. 

The reality is… what we need to do and real conversion rate optimization is going to be the iterative improvement of your site over time. 

I get asked all the time. Stephen, what is a good conversion rate, what should my conversion rate be?

Stephen: What's my benchmark?

Jon MacDonald: Exactly. And the reality is an answer that nobody wants to hear, and it's one that's always improving,

Stephen: It’s not a magic number…noooo. (sarcasm)

Jon MacDonald:  it’s funny because the amount of people I talked to on a daily basis.  And they say, “John, I know my competitor is doing a 3% conversion rate. I'm only at 1.5. I need to double my conversion rate” 

I say “Okay, well, how do you know your competitors doing a 3% conversion rate. Let's start there because it’s probably wrong.” 

Second of all, “Why do you need to double your conversion rate?” Right. And if it's just to catch up with them like, that's really not the best way to look at this because you'll be chasing that tail all day long. 

Instead, let's just focus on where yours is that right now…establish a good baseline. Let's make sure you have the right numbers that you're tracking, and it likely should be more than just conversion rate. 

We should look at things like AOV, average order value. We should look at things like cart abandonment or even add-to-cart. All right, what's that’s add-to-cart rate. That's an important one that a lot of people don't even think about. And we should be looking at things like, “What is your return on ad spend?” So if you're doing all of this traffic generation spend. “How are you getting a return on that? Can we improve that return through optimizing your site?” 

So there's a lot of metrics to be looking at here that are levers that can really have a serious financial impact. And again, all we want to do is see those incrementally grow over time. 

And I like to think of it like a 401K account. In the United States, we have retirement accounts and they're traditionally done through an employer is calling 401K where they take a bit of your paycheck and it's applied to a retirement account for you. And that way you don't realize to have to think about it just comes out of your paycheck. But it's every pay a little bit comes out whatever you set and and that goes into your retirement. 

Well, the nice thing is, is that as you start investing in that retirement, it continues to grow in the interests, then starts the compound over time, right? 

So the idea is, after 20-30 years of putting money in there, the interest continues to put money in, and then you it's you start seeing that grow and compound, and it starts to just shoot up into the right on the chart, right? So by the time you retire, in theory, you should have a lot more money than what you've put in over the years. 

It's the exact same thing with conversion rate optimization. If you're looking for that quick win.  That's like going in plain rollout at the casino for your retirement fund, right that quick win. It's not gonna work. You might get lucky, right? Might. But odds are in the casino's favor. They're not in your favor. It's the exact same thing.

Stephen: It's like the rocket ship Emoji. Yes, yes, we're drawn to the rocket ship emoji and the rocket ship story of the entrepreneur that went from 0 to 10 million in one year, two years. 

So, yeah, I feel you. I feel you on this. But yet it's just steady, steady incremental growth is possible and attainable, but just I guess it's the focus, you know, not launch and leave. How to get a little better because I think I was looking once at the whole, like, uh, if you get 10% better each month, what do you come out? I think it's after 12 months. If you're 10% better, that’s over 300%….

Jon MacDonald: That's the power of compound growth right there. And so that's all we're looking to do. That's a sustainable way to grow a conversion rate, right? If you double your conversion rate overnight, you're likely using a trick or a tactic or hack that just is not going to sustainably work. 

A lot of folks they're putting pop-ups on their site with discounts, right? I'm generally against pop-ups, but that's a whole other story and podcast. Perhaps, but I think that with the worst defenders of that and the ones I'm really against, the ones who immediately offer discount as soon as somebody comes to your site because what you've done is you take somebody who has a pain or need, and they're on your site to help understand if your product or service is going to solve that pain or need that they have, right? 

You've taken that customer who's come into your store, and all of a sudden you're saying, “Hey, now take a discount.” It's like, “Well, I don't even know if you can help me.” But I'm also now thinking about us a discount brand, right? And so it's all about using these things at the right time. In the buyers journey, I often liken websites to retail. You shouldn't do something on your eCommerce site that you wouldn't do in a retail store, and I think that this is an important thing to think about because it's so easy to forget about the consumer on the other side of the computer screen because you don't see them. And so, a pop-up: no different than you stepping one foot into a retail store and a sales associate popping out in front of you and with a clipboard and saying, “Give me your email address”. You’re going to have a negative reaction to that. 

Stephen: A lot of times brands….there's a copycatting culture with that, too, with discounts. But you really don't. You want people to just see the value of your company. If they're gonna purchase it only cause it’s discounted than they're gonna want to go back again for a discount. And I think one of the biggest challenges of eCommerce too is keeping the margins. But with opt-ins. Now, I think it's getting healthier because I'm seeing more placements that are not just hitting everyone with the same pop-up, a spray-and-pray popup. And also, they're offering different values because become part of our community is becoming another draw, and that's a great way to bring people in because you're not diluting your value.

Jon MacDonald: Exactly. You made a great point there that I don't want to let just go by. And that’s: Once somebody is offered a discount and purchases with the discount. They are forever a discount customer. And at that point there forever going to see your brand is a discount brand. 

Stephen: Yeah. Brands gotta be very careful with discounts in general because it just creates the wrong type of customer. 

I think this is the exciting part for listeners because we're gonna talk about…. I know you have some ideas on what people could do on conversion rate optimization for immediate results or what are three recommendations you would have.

Jon MacDonald: Well, I think that the first thing is they should all be collecting the correct data and one of you, but that is the number of brands….big brands that we end up working with where their analytics is a mess when we start working with them. It just blows my mind every time. 

The reality is, the sooner you get your analytics and data tracking in place, the better off you'll be. And the first thing you should be doing is make sure you have clean data and it's not that complicated. You just have to spend a little bit of time of it. 

Don't just turn on GA (Google analytics) and then walk away and say, “OK, I've got it, It's running. It's collecting data.” Well, there's some simple things you can do in there. I mean, one of the most simple things. This is just to turn on eCommerce tracking. It's a check box. It's really easy who will makes it as easy as possible for you. But a lot of people just they don't dive into the studies to do those types of things. 

Stephen: Okay, so cleaning data is #1.

Jon MacDonald:  #2 is paying attention to that data. What I mean by that is, look at that data. Just spend an hour a week. It doesn't need to be a ton, but you will notice trends and that's what's gonna be important. You're gonna look at your analytics. You're gonna look at your heatmaps and you're gonna say, “OK, I see what people are doing here. This must be a problem. How do I fix this?” 

And then you try something out. You look the next week. You see if that helped. You don't have to get into A/B testing right away to fix things. You can do things with lower amounts of traffic. You could do things that don't require professionals like (the conversion rate optimization agency) The Good. You can just go in and just pay attention to your own data. And that will really help you to understand and sympathize what the experiences for your consumer, So that's gonna make a big difference.

Stephen: I see the same thing with data. I think a lot of times what happens is it depends on the team or how many developers are working inside the organization and how much they're looking at the data. If certain aspects are not getting seen. Those checks are not in place because just like nobody looks at the code, the same thing can happen with some of the analytics. Some of the data aspects.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, I think that that's just getting your consumers involved is going to be huge is well, because if you understand some of the data right, you don't even have to deep dive into it. 

But as you mentioned, a lot of that subject was overlooked because it's just not top of mind or they don't really know what they're doing there. But the whole goal of all of this is just to talk to consumers. 

And so, you know, the #3 thing would be very clearly. Just interact with your consumers, call up a customer and just say, “Hey, how was your experience? I just wanted to check in. Do you have any feedback?”

Or if you're a small site, it is super easy to get consumer real consumer feedback. Take your laptop, go to your local coffee shop and find people who you think might fit your target. 

Now you have to profile a little bit. But find people you think might fit your target demographic. Go up to them and say “Hey, can I buy you a cup of coffee? Can I buy your coffee today if you're willing to spend …. while we wait for the barista to make it, we spend time looking at my website and you give me some feedback. You only have to do that with five or so people, and you will notice some trends. 

That number is really low. It's It's really only five or so people before you start to see some pretty unique trends about things that are challenges for consumers on your site that you really should be looking at from their perspective.

Stephen: Yeah, this does speak to the value of surveys and interviews. I have heard a story of something in the industry who, on her computer she has a post-it note that says, “Have I talked to a customer today?” 

But actually what's cool about? I think the surveys and interviews is that first off it can happen is an extension of customer service. But I think, a lot of times you know, people get dazzled by on the consulting or agency side. The ideas that you come up with and you're just thinking, “I just talked to a lot of customers. And that's how I got some of these ideas.” 

So it gives you that gives you a treasure trove of ideas because you're seeing the friction and the objections and why they're not purchasing. So it's not magic. You're just seeing it through the eyes of the customer.

Jon MacDonald: Yeah, it is really, really hard to understand what a customer is seen on your website because most likely you had a hand in building the navigation, understanding the products, how the categories, they're separated, all the content on the site. You may have had at least some hand in. You're too close to the site to understand what the new-to-file customer it's experiencing. So it's really important that you get that perspective brought to you?

Stephen: Absolutely, Absolutely. So thank you so much for coming on the show. Jon, this was great. 

Jon MacDonald: Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. Stephen

Stephen: and I think I heard that you have a podcast as well that's coming soon.

Jon MacDonald: We do. I'm doing a podcast. It’s called “Drive and Convert”. We will be releasing here very, very shortly on iTunes/Apple Podcasts, apple podcast and whatever platform you would like yes, called “Drive and Convert” It's myself and a gentleman named Ryan Garrow. Ryan focuses on driving traffic, and we focused on converting it. And it's a great mix because when you get the two of those things right, it's like adding fuel to the fire. So the show is all just him and I interviewing each other on different topics. I'll interview him about driving traffic and he interviews me about conversion related items. And so it's amazing show for eCommerce people. So thanks for bringing that up, Stephen. I appreciate it.

Stephen: Absolutely looking forward to listening. Okay, So if people are interested in learning more about the beak or process or want to hear more about conversion optimization, how can they reach you? 

Feel free to just email me directly. It's just John J. O N. There's no H at The Good dot com, and you can learn more about The Good at The Good dot com as well if you're interested in conversion optimization. Feel free to just email me directly. I do read every email and do my best to get back to people in a manner so I'd be happy to hear from you and happy to be a resource for B Corp certification. 

If I can or introduce you to some more of the team here at The Good who helped us through that process is perfect. 

Stephen: Thanks again for coming on.